we asked you at the top of the show what you're doing up at this hour. >> i'm awaken joying a heaping bowl of malarky. >> the way timberlake brought sexy back. >> the real debate was happening in my house last night. alex rodriguez or raul ibanez. >> the evidence speaks for itself. "morning joe" starts right now. >> the only way you can find $5 trillion in loopholes is cut the mortgage deduction for middle-class people, cut the health care deduction of

middle-class people. take away their ability to get a tax break to send their kids to college. that's why they arrived. >> is he wrong about that? >> he is wrong about that. you can cut tax rates by 20% and still preserve important references for middle-class taxpayers. >> it isn't mathematically possible. >> it isn't. it's been done before. >> it has never been done before. >> it's been done a couple times. >> now you're jack kennedy. >> ronald reagan -- >> okay. good morning. >> i missed that one. >> good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it's friday, october 12th. with us on set, we have the former governor of vermont and former chairman of the democratic national committee, howard dean. and contributor to "newsweek" and the daily beast and former adviser to george w. bush, mark mckinnon. >> wait. no, hold on. what is that, willie? >> it's fair to call it the

mexican scarf. >> willie and i both were thinking about wearing that yesterday, but we were afraid we'd come to the set wearing the same thing. >> yes. maybe mark feels the need to distract this morning. >> distracting. let's see what al hunt is wearing this morning. >> washington executive -- oh -- of bloomberg news, al hunt. oh, my goodness. and from the site of last night's debate in zanvilldanvil kentucky, mark halperin. >> i think i speak for everybody when i say this morning we are all washington senators. >> we are. >> i'm still not going to call them the nats. we had a debate, but willie, really quickly last night, some more great baseball. >> holy cow. >> can you believe that? >> can you see it on my face, when you invest that much time in a game, you have to stay up late and see what happens. >> what time was that over? >> about midnight. >> i came home, vice presidential debate on dvr, yankees live, it was a long night. the yankees lost extra innings. another 12-inning game.

13 innings, excuse me. and the orioles came through in the clutch. a-rod, one more time, joe -- >> struck out. >> he struck out. and then when they had a shot down one run, the bottom of the last inning, they pulled him back to the bench again and sent eric chavez up. he made the last out of the game. it's an incredible story. alex rodriguez, one of the great players in the history of the game, is being taken off the field in crunch time. >> you just can't trust him in crunch time. all of these series going five games. unbelievable. al hunt, we've got to let you gloat. werth got up there. i was pulling for the senators, as i like to call them, i've never seen a batter look as lost as werth looked on the first two pitches, seriously. he looked like he was somewhere north of poughkeepsie. he was nowhere in that game. he fouled off pitch after pitch, takes him, what, a 13, 14-pitch count and then man, knocks it out of the park. >> joe, it was incredible. the single best at-bat i've ever seen. and you're right, that's the way it started.

but imagine being down 0-2 -- when a pitcher has you down 0-2, you're in trouble. and the guy goes and foul off nine pitches. and then the 13th pitch, he hits it out of the park, walkoff home run, the place went wild. i was really happy because otherwise i wouldn't have gotten to the vice presidential debate. >> there you go. you guys had a loaded schedule last night. >> willie, did you see that? >> i didn't see it live. i saw the highlights. >> i'm telling you, i've never seen a batter look more confused and lost the first two, and then he fouled off one after another after another. and then the pitcher made a mistake. 13, 14 pitches in. we're going to game five. game five, mika, you're basically a walking baseball encyclopedia, all these series have gone five games. >> exactly. >> it's great for mlb. >> it sure is. >> you don't care. so the debate last night was also, it was a perfect -- it was just one of those -- what do you

call an ink blot? >> rorschach. >> you talk to republicans and they say joe biden was rude and obnoxious. and democrats will say biden was fantastic. he was a fighter. he won going away. >> yeah. exactly. that's sort of a good read from you. snap cnn/orc poll shows 48% of registered voters thought paul ryan won last night and 44% thought biden was the winner. the same poll has the more likeable of the two candidates leading vice president biden by ten points, 53%-43%. >> let's show some clips of this thing. i don't think, howard dean, it's a surprise that paul ryan may have come across as more likeable because joe was -- joe had to make up for lost ground in the first debate. he had to come out as the fighter. >> the interesting thing is the cbs poll shows biden winning by a wide margin.

i think it was something like 50-33 or something like that. i think the cnn poll's a little weird here. there's something funny about that. >> i think the cbs poll is. >> i'm hearing the cbs poll. i'm not sure if people even watched the debate that were polled in the cbs poll. >> it was undecided debate watchers supposedly. so the interesting thing is, you know, i think biden did what he had to do, which is to get the ticket back on target. >> yeah. >> why don't we watch some clips. >> really? you don't want to give an opinion? okay. the night began on the -- >> mika, what's wrong, mika? you're being so rude. i think -- what do you think? >> yes. i think biden just completely trounced him. ate him for dinner and then spit him out on the table like little shrivelled piece of something. i don't know what. i mean, seriously. >> i didn't see that. >> really?

okay. well, that's funny because you had very clear opinions after the last debate. but you have very unclear opinions after this one. and i think it might be because you're a little uncomfortable about it. >> i will say, mika -- >> hold on. that's just nonsense. what's wrong with you? >> how do you think it went? >> i think joe biden did what he had to do for his base, and i think paul ryan did what he had to do for his base. i think paul ryan, and mark mckinnon said it last night, ryan held serve when he had to hold serve. and joe biden went out and he was john mcenroe throwing the racket, fighting, screaming, yelling at the ref, prove he had heart. right now the democratic base needs an excuse to believe -- and i think joe biden gave that to them last night. i think it was very good for the democratic ticket. i think in the long run, mark mckinnon, it wasn't so good for joe biden. >> well, he did his job which was to fire up the base, show some passion. ryan also did his job by making it clear that he is calm and competent and that he can hold the job and sit in the big chair. the question is what happened

for those voters in the middle? i think most voters have an opinion. they hadn't seen paul ryan before, and i think they liked what they saw. it was shown in the research. they liked ryan, that he was competent, calm and that he could handle the job. >> al hunt, did he look too young next to joe biden? i think that was part of the strategy, too, laugh at him, dismiss him, make him -- marginalize him. did that work? >> no, it didn't. i thought ryan was fine. i don't share mark's view that people were suddenly clamoring for ryan in the oval office. he certainly held his own, but the story was all about joe biden. that's what last night was. the reason, joe, you're right, it was so important was not because he trounced him or not because it was a repeat of romney/obama, the other way around, you had a very dispirited democratic debate. you had people who really were hanging their heads after the last debate, and what joe did

was turn that around. and that's not unimportant, among other reasons, people are voting today in a number of states around america. and i think what joe biden was able to do was to put a lot of pep back in the democratic party. i don't think it has long-term consequences. it's not going to affect november 6th very much, but it helps them out at a time they needed help. >> no, i couldn't agree with you more. mark halperin, how do you think it went down? is there a clear winner here? >> i thought they both did fine, the way you all have been discussing, that they both did well for their base and the democrats needed a -- they couldn't afford another loss given what happened with the president in denver. i made congressman ryan a slight favorite -- or gave him a slight edge only because the strong instinct of a lot of people was the mannerisms of the vice president were offputting. i think he didn't show enough grace. he didn't show enough of his positive attributes. i thought, again, if we're going to try and define the impact this might have on voters in the

middle, i thought the vice president was a little off-putting at times. paul ryan, we've seen a series of vice presidential debates where could the more junior person be embarrassed and schooled. think sarah palin, john edwards, dan quayle. i thought paul ryan, incredibly impressive. biden dominated the debate, but there wasn't a moment where paul ryan had a deer in the headlights look. and i think that's pretty significant for him both in terms of getting through this but also his long-term future. >> i think, though, there was one moment that was bad for paul ryan. and you could tell joe biden was ready for it. and that was regarding the stimulus program he was against. he said, but i've got two letters from you asking for money. >> that was painful. >> and paul didn't really have an answer to that. i think joe biden's low point was where he just out and out did not get the libyan story right. willie, we've been talking about libya. he said man, nobody asked us for more. well, they had just had a hearing saying that we begged the state department for more

money, and we were -- we knew we were in trouble. >> it continues to amaze me that from the president to the vice president to the u.s. ambassador to the u.n., they can't get a coherent story about what happened now more than a month ago. >> and all the vice president said was we're going to get to the bottom of it. i love what peggy noonan said, "oh, good." >> let me show the clip and then i have a question for you because the night began, right out of the box, martha raddatz went right to libya and the deadly assault that killed four americans. >> it took the president two weeks to acknowledge that this was a terrorist attack. look, if we are hit by terrorists, we're going to call it for what it is, a terrorist attack. this benghazi issue would be a tragedy in and of itself, but unfortunately, it's indicative of a broader problem, and that is what we are watching on our tv screens is the unraveling of the obama foreign policy. >> with all due respect, that's a bunch of malarky. this lecture on embassy

security, the congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for. we weren't told they wanted more security. we did not know they wanted more security again. and by the way, at the time we were told exactly -- we said exactly what the intelligence community told us. that they knew. that was the assessment. and as the intelligence community changed their view, we made it clear they changed their view. that's why i said we will get to the bottom of this. usually when there's a crisis, we pull together. we pull together as a nation. as i said, even before we knew what happened to the ambassador, the governor was holding a press conference, was holding a press conference. that's not presidential leadership. >> okay. what do you think paul ryan could have done to take more advantage of that moment on that topic? >> well, i would have certainly -- circle back and say, you're wrong.

first of all, ask why he's smiling at the end of that. listen, that answer was off-putting for two reasons. one, he threw the intelligence community under the bus. and it's just not a smart thing to do. the second thing is, yeah, i'll come to you, howard, in a second. and the second thing is -- and i'll just direct it to you, howard, he got the facts completely wrong when he said nobody told us we needed more troops. the state department was told. we heard this, the people that were on the ground were begging for more troops and they didn't get them. >> here's the problem. if you want to see who wins a debate and who doesn't, turn off the sound and watch them. on that clip, ryan was a disaster. he does have a deer in the headlights, and biden is standing there, making his points. biden, in that clip, i saw biden as the president of the united states talking about security which is something he knows far more about. >> this one right here? what i see in paul ryan -- >> he said he's going to get to the bottom of it. >> it doesn't matter. it's like romney making up all

that stuff two weeks ago about the $5 trillion. he said -- the reason romney did well in that debate is he said it with conviction and surety. it doesn't matter what you say. >> i'm looking at paul ryan here. i know him. what he's thinking is i cannot believe you don't have your story straight. >> which is exactly what barack obama was thinking two weeks ago. joe biden in this clip if you turn off the sound, he looks like the president of the united states talking. you can dispute the facts. that's what people see. >> i think this is a problematic issue that's going to continue. >> al hunt, beyond the debate, i guess the question that willie's been asking and i've been asking around the table for the past week, why can't they get the story straight on benghazi? >> well, no, they can't. and i happen to agree with you, joe, and not governor dean. i think it was a great moment for joe biden. i thought he was actually a little falling on occasion because the story is very complicated. i thought that was really one of his low points. on the other side, i thought paul ryan, who is the great tax

expert, he is wrong on the $5 trillion tax cut when he keeps saying it's been done before. nothing like this has ever been done before, including the reagan '86 act, jack kennedy. what they're doing is telling you exactly what tax cuts they'll have, and say sometime later, secret for now, we're going to tell you how we're going to offset them dollar for dollar. that's something that's never been done before, and paul ryan will get caught up on that more as we go on. >> mark halperin? >> just to go back to the lib kran thing and also disagree with governor dean, these fights over medicare and taxes, these have been adjudicated and fought over for months. this libya story is still evolving. there's still real questions. governor romney hit it very hard last night, didn't get a lot of attention because of the debate. and the press is continuing to pursue this story. so if there's anything out of the debate that i think could have resonance and be a moving target going forward, it's the topic of benghazi, and i think the vice president may have put down some marks that are going to cause problems for the

administration going forward. >> mika, what do you think, talk about how you think joe biden last night energized the democratic base. what he did -- because we're talking about a lot of different things. and picking apart policy more than the politics of it. why do you think talking to the democrats you spoke to last night, that this was big for the party? >> look, what i saw was what joe biden always does when push comes to shove. people talk about his gaffes, about his, you know, loose, fun personality, but when push comes to shove, joe biden comes through. and his washington experience am cos through. and his ability to engage head to head comes through. and his intellect comes through and his foreign policy experience comes through. and you know what? he said that sort of semi-monologue about get out of the way. that hit home. going after the 47% line, that hit home. he did everything that you kind of wished you saw in the last

debate, and then at the same time, some people might have thought he was smiling too much, whatever, going after style. you know what? if he wasn't, he would have come off as overly grouchy and strong and completely cruel to much younger person on the stage with him. he did everything he was supposed to do. he won. >> i think because of obama's performance, people needed him to get jacked up. >> i think he did -- i think probably, willie, he did what he had to do for the democratic party. i don't think he helped his own image. but i think he did what he had to do. he was a great team player. >> i think they both did what they had to do. joe biden didn't really do any damage to the cause of the president, and paul ryan sat on the stage -- those of us who cover washington and politics know paul ryan. we've seen him in different settings. but most of the country has never seen him on a big stage. and i think many people would say he sat there, he held his own. he went toe to toe with the vice president of the united states. he had command of the issues. and that is a guy, if you had to have it, you could see as the

vice president of the united states. i think in the long run, this won't matter a great deal. i don't know if the rest of you agree. we get past this next presidential debate. i think it was sort of a slide past it. >> i agree, i think it pushes it to the next debate and the pressure is really on the president. i'm really looking for either of these candidates and campaigns to make tough choices and tough decisions. and there were two times last night where i think they both missed an opportunity. one when joe biden was asked about extending the age eligibility on entitlements. and martha raddatz said just one year? two years? he dodged the question. he would not answer the question about whether or not there would be any increase in age eligibility. the average life span has creased 15 years since those laws were put in place, and we've only changed it one year. and i think paul ryan missed an opportunity on the issue of specifics on the $5 trillion which is a great idea that governor romney came up with in the last debate or week or two ago about the idea of a capped basket of deductions. that means you have to decide

whether or not it's going to be your home mortgage or whatever other charitable deductions or some combination, but it's capped at 17%. that's where you pay for it. whatever it is, i'm surprised ryan didn't mention it when he had the opportunity. >> the problem is with that is the numbers still don't add up. >> well, to drop it to 10%. cap deductions and bring it down and whatever works, it works, or you'd bring down the tax deduction. >> let's take a look at some of the interactions. the two candidates sparred on the question of who really has the middle class's best interest at heart when it comes to the tax burden. >> the middle class will pay less, and people making $1 million or more will begin to contribute slightly more. let me give you one concrete example. the continuation of the bush tax cuts. we are arguing that the bush tax cuts for the wealthy should be allowed to expire. they're saying no. they're holding hostage the middle-class tax cut to the super wealthy. and on top of that, they've got another tax cut coming.

>> look, if you taxed every person in successful small business making over $250,000 at 100%, it would only run the government for 98 days. if everybody who paid income taxes last year including successful small businesses, doubled their income taxes this year, we'd still have a $300 billion deficit. you see, there aren't enough rich people and small businesses to tax to pay for all their spending. and so the next time you hear them say don't worry about it, we'll get a few wealthy people to pay their fair share, watch out, middle class. the tax bill is coming to you. >> so al. >> good exchange. >> what do you think, mika? >> no, al, go ahead. >> you laughed at that line. a lot of people thought that was a strong line. >> okay. it was ridiculous. >> it was ridiculous. >> what was ridiculous about it, mika? >> both sides are being ridiculous on this one because neither one of these people are going to balance the budget. this is the biggest failure in the campaign on both sides. >> amen.

>> is that neither side has made any significant attempt to balance the budget. and what ryan and romney are calling is outrageously stupid. what the president is doing is inadequate. >> okay. al? >> good description. nothing partisan about that description. you know, al, the governor brings up a point. i'm not sure that i agree with how he describes the two sides, but i will say that when joe biden -- let's just take these two issues right here. to talk about the stupidity of this campaign. joe biden won't even talk about raising entitlement -- your date of eligibility for entitlements one year despite the fact when fdr set the life expectancy at 62, we're now up, 79, 80, something like that. and you've got three people working for every one person getting these entitlements. and then on the republican side, this $5 trillion tax cut, the numbers don't add up. it doesn't matter what you do.

the numbers don't add up. nor does the administration's belief that if you just tax rich guys, you're going to take care of the deficit. it's just -- it's nonsense. >> joe, you're absolutely right. neither side is seriously addressing this. neither side is really close to any bowles-simpson architecture, if you will. the democrats have refused to really address entitlements. barack obama has really made no serious proposal on medicare. i couldn't agree with you more there. and the $5 trillion proposal as it exists today is a sham, a total sham. and moreover, governor romney also proposes a $2 trillion defense increase. now, if you want to do that, you think there's a case for it, and some of the military people are wrong. they need it. then you at least ought to say how you're going to pay for it. >> howard? >> hey, joe? >> the fascinating thing about

all this is the positioning. now, i actually disagree with joe on raising the entitlement age. i don't have a problem with raising the age on social security because i agree with you actuarily. raising the age on medicare is really a bad idea. it's the one thing that would make me not support simpson-bowles if i were in the congress because medicare is a health insurance program. it isn't about an entitlement. it's about figuring out how to get everybody health insurance. the one program we have that covers everybody that's universal is medicare. why would you want to raise the age on medicare? but i agree with you on social security and the other entitlements. we cannot continue to have this kind of level of entitlement spending if we're going to balance the budget. but medicare needs to have something different done to it. it needs to be paid for by the patient and not the procedure. >> all right. final word from mark halperin. mark. >> look, there's a proposal that probably won't be taken up, but i'd be for scrapping foreign policy as the topic of the last debate. i think we've had a fair amount of foreign policy discussion. the last debate should be all about the fiscal cliff. 90 minutes, what are you going

to do about taxes? what are you going to do about spending? because we're not having the adequate debate if it doesn't happen in that last debate which it won't because it's now on for. policy, we'll never have them talk about it. it is the issue facing the country, the issue for whoever gets elected because if they don't deal with it in january, we're going to have a world of trouble. >> i agree. i wouldn't underestimate iran, though. maybe we should just have another one. coming up, house majority leader congressman eric cantor. congressman chris van hollen who played the role of vice president biden in his mock debates, senior adviser to the romney campaign, ed gillespie and tom brokaw. up next, jim vandehei in the "politico playbook." first here's bill karins with a check on the forecast. >> active weather greets us on this friday. there's a few important points for your weekend plans. heading out the door this morning, light rain and cold air heading up into new england this morning. we've got thunderstorms in tennessee, heavy rain in southern missouri, and numerous showers from arizona to utah.

and a new system coming into the northwest. so we've had a very inactive october, and now all of a sudden things are getting a little more active. it's going to be a very cold day in new england. be prepared tonight a hard freeze through all of new england. the growing season will end. tomorrow morning will be in the 20s in many areas. keep that in mind. today a lot of the major airports are just fine. tomorrow is the day of danger. we're going to have a very strong storm system in the middle of the country, almost like a springlike scenario with numerous severe lines of thunderstorms. and the possibility of even tornadoes, specifically if you live in iowa, illinois, missouri, areas of eastern kansas, oklahoma and down through dallas. you'll have a chance of seeing those strong thunderstorms and even the possibility of a few tornadoes. then by the time sunday arrives, those storms are in the ohio valley and tennessee valley. everyone on the east coast, by the way, your weekend does look dry. but you will have that very cold start saturday morning. more details to come. you're watching "morning joe" on

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all right. we're going to take a look at the "morning papers." look closely at this one. this is an incredible debate. "los angeles times," sitting united states congressman howard berman and brad sherman went head to head quite literally yesterday at pierce college north of santa monica, california. a crowd of college students urging them along, the two democrats who are now in the same district because of redistricting, so they're both incumbents fighting each other nearly came to blows. >> when in reality, see, he's either delusional or -- [ cheers and applause ]

wrong. >> the official records of congress. don't get in my face. you want to get into this? >> calm yourself. >> so they calmed down after that. lest you think these are two buddies just kind of tangling a little bit, politico has called this one of the ten nastiest races in all of the country this year. afterward the campaign manager for congressman berman told the newspaper that congressman sherman was challenging him to a

fight. campaign consultant for sherman called that ridiculous, said it was berman who initiated the exchange. there you go. american politics. >> it ain't taiwan. >> no. what is, though? >> i served with both of those guys. >> did you? intense? >> not like that. i think the only time i saw two guys punching it out on the floor were when -- who was it -- jim moran and duke cunningham. >> that's why we need the no-labels approach. stop fighting, start fixing. >> there's actually a great back story -- this has nothing to do with the fight -- these guys are in the same district running against each other because they took redistricting away from the california legislature. this is the wave of the future. it's the only way you're going to fix american politics is to get politicians -- defang them and make it impossible for them to right their own districts. that's what they did here. it's great, actually. the fight may be great, but the reason they're running against each other is great. >> sherman and berman. back to danville, kentucky, politico's executive director jim vandehei has a look at the

playbook. jim, good morning. >> good morning. how you doing? love that clip. >> pretty good, right? you've heard sort of all the conventional wisdom about what happened last night. you were there. what's your take? >> i think after 2:00 today, there's only two things people are going to be talking about. i think the late-night shows will have a heck of a lot of fun with joe biden's facial expressions, and i think the libya debate is going to continue to rage on. largely because mitt romney's not going to let it go. halperin was talking earlier about how mitt romney came out pretty forcefully on it, got overshadowed by other things that happened inside of the debate. but look for republicans to come back on that issue and come back at it hard. and i think that will flow into the sunday shows and continue to be a big debate. >> jim, how do you think paul ryan did, just broadly? as i said before, we haven't seen him in this big a setting with this many people watching on this big a stage. how did he acquit himself? >> i think unless you're really a paul ryan groupie, you can only say he did sort of a passable job, exactly what he need to do do. he didn't have any major

screw-ups. he came detailed even on some of the foreign policy questions at the end of the day. he wasn't asked specif specific of republicans wanted him to be. he had sort of two sets of handcuffs on. one was his own limitations in debating foreign policy against someone like joe biden. and the other set of handcuffs was is he wants to wage a war of ideas. one would have gotten specific on programs you could cut, the specifics on medicare reform. but mitt romney didn't want him to do that. mitt romney wants to keep it vague, wants to be able to try to appear -- try to appeal to the middle and try to win over those 6% to 10% of undecideds. >> now we turn the corner to the next presidential debate next week out on long island. jim vandehei in danville, kentucky, thanks so much. >> take care. coming up, a-rod are another chance last night in new york to validate that big old salary against the orioles. >> did he do it? >> you'll have to stick around and find out. >> that's a tease. these fellas used capital one venture miles

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we've got a lot of baseball to get to. let's go quickly, the detroit tigers last night in a game five out in oakland. won 6-0 behind that man, this

was a decisive game five. the oakland a's season ending because of justin verlander alone. a complete game shutout with 11 strikeouts. an incredible performance. the tigers move on to the alcs. who will they play? more late-night drama in the bronx between the yankees and orioles. after suffering a walkoff loss in extras, orioles facing elimination late into the night. game four down to the wire. we start in the fifth. phil hughes pitched well for the yankees, gave up only that solo home run. the only one he gave up in 6 2/3. eighth inning. 1-1. runners on second and third. one out for alex rodriguez. >> this is his chance to redeem himself. >> lift one into the outfield. put the bat on the ball. >> $250 million for that swing. >> and he waves. he waves the fastball. we stayed tied through nine. a-rod, by the way, 2 for 17, 9 strikeouts in the series. look at this, broken bat, joba

chamberlain, hits him in the pitching elbow, a big red contusion on his elbow, had to come out of the game. x-rays luckily negative for chamberlain. 13th inning now. manny machado, this kid is incredible. he was on third base after he hit a double. and now j.j. hardy driving him home. machado strolls in from third base, 2-1. one last chance. this is a-rod's spot in the lineup. bottom of the 13th. he is pulled back to the bench. and this is the pinch-hitter, eric chavez. he lines out to third base. but again, alex rodriguez, not at the plate for his spot in the batting order, down one run in the bottom of the 13th inning. the orioles win, 2-1, forces a decisive game five which starts about 5:00 this afternoon. >> this is a classic series. and these orioles, man, they are something. >> they've been doing it all year. and they get a chance to win it today at yankee stadium. al hunt's squad, the nats facing elimination at home

against the card fals. adam laroche breaks the scoreless tie for washington, solo home run. nats on the board after they were shut out a couple days ago. bottom of the ninth, score tied at 1-1, jayson werth up to lead off, just will not go away. fouls off pitch after pitch. 13 pitches, in fact, into the at-bat, with a 3-2 count, this happened. >> 3-2. and a drive hit deep to left field. looking up, way back, it's gone! >> 13 pitches, one game-winning home run. the walkoff there. nats win, 2-1. they live to play another day. they will play the cardinals in a winner-take-all game five tonight in washington. al hunt, will you be there, sir? >> i will be there as will geo. therefore that means we'll be there on sunday against the giants. >> you said it. they've got geo gonzalez pitching. a lot of people think he could win the cy young in the national league. you've got to like their

chances. >> what do you think, al? >> oh, i feel good. i feel terrific, joe. this club -- listen, with davey johnson, the other thing yesterday in the seventh inning, he brings in jordan zimmerman, a starter, the first time he had ever come in from the pen, one of the best starters in baseball, only davey johnson would have pulled that move. >> and he struck out the side. >> he did. next, mika's "must-read opinion pages." you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks.

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welcome back to "morning joe." 44 past the hour. time now for the "must-read opinion pages." and we have more reaction to the vice presidential debate last night. we'll start with "the washington post." biden rattles ryan. dana milbank, and he writes in part this. "the emphasis on congressional republicans was key to biden's strong performance in kentucky,

because it provided a more favorable way for democrats to frame the campaign, not as a choice between president obama and some abstract alternative but a choice between obama and the dimly regarded republican-led house, which would be in a dominant position under a president romney. romney's views may be all over the lot, but the positions of republicans on capitol hill are clear and stark. many will criticize biden's antics on the debate stage, loud guffaws, grimaces, raising his arms and looking heavenward, interjecting with "oh, god" and "this is amazing." but all of the scoffing and incr incredulity was to an end and one that obama would be wise to emulate. >> mark halperin, does he need to show outrage in the next debate? >> remember, a big part of the fundamentals of this race is,

mitt romney and the republican congress want to not raise taxes on the wealthy as part of a balanced deficit reduction plan, and they want to change how medicare works. those are the two big winning issues the president is with the side of the american people on. i think he needs to show outrage on issues like that and not just across the board on whatever mitt romney does. >> governor, i would think you would agree with dana milbank. >> i agree with mark. that's in a concise a way as i've heard it. you've got to hit him on medicare which romney is now in trouble with seniors on, and you've got to hit him on favoring the wealthy which everybody believes about mitt romney. don't forget, this is the guy with the cayman islands and swiss bank account. i would mention that if i was the president of the united states, and i think he will. >> let me ask you, al, stylistically. i don't think the president can do what vice president biden did last night. we all hold our leaders to different standards.

joe biden, in a debate like that, would be fine if he were running for congress, if he were running for the senate. i personally found it off-putting as a vice president. i prefer the lloyd bentsen approach, if you're going to take somebody apart, do it with a low, steady voice. i'm just wondering, what are your thoughts stylistically? did joe biden -- joe biden do what joe biden had to do last night? were you, as a washington guy that's been around this for a long time, did you find it off-putting, or do you think it was called for? >> i think joe was joe. and when you're yourself, it usually helps in politics. look, it's going to lend itself to some great scenes on "saturday night live" and other late-night comedians. i agree with mark halperin on that. but i don't think it was like al gore in 2000, which mark will remember. al gore looked arrogant and condescending and elitist. what joe was, joe was scrappy at

times, rude, feisty. i think that's what he needed to do last night. i think he could have done without a few smirks. he could have done without a few interruptions. but i don't think it really hurt him. and i think when you talk about style, joe, one of the things we ought to consider is, as barack obama goes into that now very important debate next tuesday, the format's a town hall. and that makes it a little bit harder for him to be tough and challenging romney because you have to be responsive to questions that those voters ask you. so i think obama's task is a little bit more difficult next week than simply to recoup from the disaster in denver. >> all right. mark halperin, al hunt and howard dean, thank you all so much. it's good to have you on the show. >> thank you so much. >> we'll be right back with "willie's week in review." you're a little boring. boring. boring. [ jack ] after lauren broke up with me, i went to the citi private pass page

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oh, please tell me it's time. >> it is, mika. time for "the week in review." we should point out, again, this woman was okay. >> are you sure? >> they want them to do, you know, everything on. but, you know, >> you okay? okay. >> at number three, always be closing. >> you okay?

>> qvs guest host cassie slain fainted on air while selling a kid-friendly android. her cohost coolly rushed aside the minor distraction and just kept right on moving merchandise. >> you okay? okay. >> what it does is it gives us an opportunity for us to be able to offer a piece of electronic equipment. >> slain recovered almost immediately. later blaming low blood sugar and not her tv partner. >> i think people are envisioning him stepping over my limp body selling products. >> at number two, a bad habit. video was released this week of a woman who either is a sweet old nun or just plays one on surveillance tv. swiping a little cold beer from an oklahoma convenience store. the holy sister was hankering,

it turns out, for a couple of tall boys and was short on cash. so with only a closed-circuit camera and the good lord above watching, she executed the blessed five-finger discount not once but twice. and the number one story of the week -- >> we had a little debate earlier this week, and i enjoyed myself. >> the long shadow of last week's presidential debate lingered this week. the shadow, in fact, was about eight feet long and full of feathers. >> the evil genius who towered over them, one man has the guts to speak his name. >> big bird. big bird. big bird. >> it's me, big bird. >> the obama campaign put up an ad seizing on mitt romney's debate vow to evict residents of "sesame street," home of an unreasonably angry guy who lives in a trash can, a hairy elephant with beautiful long lashes, and a big bird. >> finally somebody is cracking down on big bird. >> so you have to scratch your

head when the president spends the last week talking about saving big bird. >> meanwhile, the big-name surrogates were out towing haymakers on the campaign trail. >> here's old moderate mitt. where you been, boy? i missed you all these last two years. >> let's get you the plane ticket back to chicago you've earned. >> and the veep boys. after some intense warm-up were scrapping in kentucky. >> it has never been done before. >> it's been done a couple of times, actually. jack kennedy lowered. >> now you're jack kennedy. >> mr. vice president, i know you're under a lot of duress, but i think people would be better served if we don't keep interrupting each other. >> well, don't take all the four minutes, then. that's a bunch of malarky. >> less than four weeks till election day, and two candidates wishing they could close the sale as well as this guy does. >> you okay?

okay. what it does is it gives us an opportunity for us to be able to offer a piece of electronic equipment that is simple for children to operate but also mom and dad can operate it as well. >> you've just got to continue to sell the product. when we come back, david gregory and tom brokaw join the conversation. also chuck todd live from danville, kentucky. and later, house majority leader eric cantor and congressman chris van hollen. all that when "morning joe" comes back. tdd#: 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about low-cost investing.

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♪ but it shouldn't be surprising for a guy who says 47% of the american people are unwilling to take responsibility for their own lives. my friend recently in a speech in washington said 30% of the american people are takers. these people are my mom and dad, the people i grew up with, my neighbors. they pay more effective tax than governor romney pays in his federal income tax. i've had it up to here with this notion that 47% -- it's about time they take some responsibility here. and instead of signing pledges to grover norquist not to ask the wealthiest among us to contribute to bring back the middle class, they should be signing a pledge saying to the middle class, we're going to level the playing field. >> mitt romney is a good man.

he cares about 100% of americans in this country. and with respect to that quote, i think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way. >> but i always say what i mean. >> some great moments last night. welcome back to "morning joe." a live look at the white house as the sun comes up over washington. mark mckinnon's still with us. and joining us on set, nbc news's tom brokaw and moderator of "meet the press," david gregory. gentlemen, good to have you on board this hour. >> good morning. >> wow! where do we begin? what a great night. >> how about david grinning like a cheshire cat or should i say like joe biden about the nats. you're excited, aren't you? >> i'm excited. i couldn't be there, obviously, but my kids were there. and they'll never forget it. jayson werth playing like a true veteran in playoff fashion and winning with a walkoff home run. it was in such dramatic fashion.

laroche obviously going deep as well, great pitching by ross detwiler. they played like more of a playoff-caliber team. great for the city. yeah, i'm really thrilled because those are moments that kids don't forget their whole lives. >> no doubt about it. >> let's get right to the vice presidential debate. >> is there more to talk about? >> there really is. i think we went too long on baseball last hour so we're going to jump into the debate. tom brokaw, how do you think it played out? what's the bottom line from last night? >> what i think it did was set up the next presidential debate. i really think it's going to bring more people into the process which i think is a good thing. they were talking about big ideas last night. both of them carried their brief extremely well, i thought. i thought that paul ryan asked the country to make a big leap on the social contract when it comes to medicare and social security and those kinds of things. and he was more hawkish than i expected him to be when it came to afghanistan and what you're going to do about iran. how that plays, the voters will decide. the vice president is the vice

president. you know, he loves the arena. he sometimes goes over the top, there's no question about that. what he did was concentrate on where they think mitt romney especially is most vulnerable. what i said last night is we now know where the president's playbook has been all week. it was in the vice president's office. he must have left it. >> right. >> was there a clear winner last night? david gregory, the question goes to you next. >> here's who won and who lost, because i think it's up to the people out there to make that determination. and it was really all about the independents and where they decide to go. and my guess is that it didn't move it sharply across the spectrum one way or another. people are still absorbing all this, taking it in. there are a lot of things that didn't come up last night. you were here last week when a prominent republican senator crawled all over me because i didn't weigh in on simp-- blame failure of simpson-bowles on the

president. that didn't come up last night. they didn't talk about the fiscal cliff last night and how they'll deal with that. and i think the republicans still do have a problem in explaining where they're going to get the $5 trillion with all the tax cuts. joe, the vice president, it was striking to me, i think you raised this earlier, when he was asked about why don't we raise the eligibility age for social security, refused to answer it. i mean, if you had said to him last night, nice tie, he would have said yeah, but do you know about romney and the 47%? he turn it had at every opportunity, and that's what you do in a debate. >> david gregory, i'll ask you the same question because the last debate it seemed like everybody had real clear feelings on who won and who lost. >> i think it was so clear in the last one. i think this was much more of a draw. i talked to people sampling on different ends of the spuk trup. some saw biden ahead, some saw ryan ahead. i think these were two candidates, one a sitting vice president who are prepared on their material and also

prepared, as tom said, with their brief. but i think it was interesting that it was biden who was more aggressive who made an emotional defense of the president and his record. and ryan who wanted to sit back just a little bit. he wanted to give biden room to be over the top, and biden was. but ryan didn't hang back too much. he was feisty where he had to be. he had some good comeback lines. and he knew what he was talking about. and he was certainly well prepared when it came to foreign policy as well, which is a newer area. i do agree with tom in this respect. i still think there's a lot of questions for republicans for this ticket about where the republican party is in foreign policy and the projection of american power and how to work america's will overseas. i don't think that's entirely clear on some of these very difficult issues. >> i think listening to paul ryan last night, you actually have a presidential candidate and a vice presidential candidate who are far more tilted toward the neocon disposition than the rest of the party. if you read george will or an

awful lot of mainstream conservative republicans -- >> are they that way in reality? >> i think he's right. the problem is that rhetorically, it may sound harsher, but when you get to policy, there's really not that much difference. >> listen, mitt romney, and i'm just guessing this, just based on, you know, believing the past is prolog, mitt romney is not going to be george w. bush. you will never hear mitt romney say we're going to spread freedom to all four corners of the globe. mitt romney, the bain guy, is not going to waste trillions of dollars in 12-year occupations. i think in this instance, i suspect he's a conservative. >> mark halperin makes a good point, it would be wise to spend more time on foreign policy. >> last debate, everybody believed that the president didn't show up, and it was a big win for mitt romney. i also know, like tom said, the morning after's not always the best time to judge who wins or

loses the debates. even though we all did that last week. but you think that joe biden was a big winner last night. tell me why. >> look, from my world view vantage point, political affiliation, maybe biden delivered what someone like me would want to see last night. so that's number one. but i'll have to say, the last debate, it was style over substance and style by romney won over the president who didn't even seem to show up. last night, to me, biden had style and substance. sometimes his style was a little shrill, but i'll tell you, he backed it up with a lot of incredibly good points and good moments. on iran, you want to start another war? he kept asking him, you want to start another war? what are we not doing with iran? what are we not doing with sanctions? what have we not done to cripple them in every other way beyond going to war? you want to start another war? he kept asking him. it was good. telling the republicans to get out of the way, to help the middle class, and again and again and again on every point,

get out of the way. that was good. it was effective. and finally, the two letters that paul ryan wrote to him asking for stimulus money or asking to help out wisconsin. i mean, come on. he nailed him. paul ryan had nothing to say about that. that was style and substance, in my opinion. >> i do agree that there was a quality at certain points where biden was swarming over him. >> yeah. >> it was stylish, but it was also substantive in the way that you're describing. again, some people will see that and say that was rude, you were hectoring him. one of the things he wanted to project, no, i am not going to let you say something that i think is not true. and again, i think that was the swarming style that you saw. and i think for a lot of partisans and a lot of folks in the base, they say yeah, go get him, joe. that's what they want to see. again, i think the question we have to sit back and wait a little bit to see is people who are more in the middle who might not have been decided, how they might have felt about that. >> you know, i'm not good -- a lot of times i can look and say

gee, i can't do that here because i know joe biden well. i love the guy. i know paul ryan and i love the guy, too. so when joe does that, i'm thinking, that's just joe being joe. >> yeah. >> how about somebody that not only doesn't know joe but doesn't follow it? >> or know paul ryan. >> or know paul ryan. >> i think this is a classic case where both sides of the aisle, people saw what they wanted to see. >> it's so interesting. >> and why is this so important -- i would say based on that, just that one fact there, that's why last night was a win for the obama campaign because go back to 2004. you guys beat john kerry with a guy who was under 50% because you were able to energize your base. you were able to drag out voters. you were able to excite them. >> no question. >> george w. bush never got over 50% until the very end. in this case -- >> and cheney helped. >> cheney helped. you have a president here under 50% in most polls. he needed joe biden to rev up the base, and listening to mika, she makes some great points.

if you're the base, biden spoke to you last night. >> listen, it comes down to this 37 democr this. democrats had a reason to cheer. they were able to take themselves off the floor where they had been for the last week. >> they got off the panic button. >> joining us, nbc political director and host of "the daily rundown," chuck todd. >> reporter: morning, guys. >> break it down for us. what do you think the bottom line was, the takeaway from last night? >> reporter: i'm going to pick up where tom left off, it was a therapy session for democrats. that's why they feel better. no, it really was. it made them feel good. something that mark was just saying, this was quintessential biden, right? if you like biden, you loved him last night, right? there's a classic joe being joe. and if you didn't like him and joe shtick wears on you, then you hated some of the moments that he had last night. but what are we talking about? this was joe biden's debate. paul ryan was at it, but this was biden's debate.

he sort of controlled the debate for better or for worse at times for him. that was important. and joe, i'm with you on this. that's a big deal to the obama campaign. they couldn't go down 0-2, to be cliche about this in baseball, they couldn't afford to lose game two of this four-game series of debates. and they didn't lose game two. we can argue, was it a full win for biden? did he give away some points in this because of style because he was a little too amped up on red bull for the first 45 minutes of this thing? maybe. but they certainly -- you can't say he lost the debate. it's all about next tuesday anyway. and biden's job was to make sure he didn't -- i mean, put it this way. had ryan clobbered biden a la what romney did to obama, boy, it would be -- imagine where things would be for the obama campaign. >> no doubt about it. >> reporter: one other quick point. is that republicans, by going after biden i think right now on

style, that's a little bit of a tell that they know, you know what? biden did sort of control this debate substantively. >> i think he dominated the debate because he was all -- he was in ryan's face the entire time. the question is, again, how that plays with the voters. i am wondering, though, and i was thinking, when i was watching the vice president last night, that he was, you know, he was -- he's being a great teammate. he was doing exactly what the president needed. he was lifting the president up after that performance. but i was always -- >> reporter: god bless him. >> god bless him. i was also thinking about a guy who let david gregory know in 2009, he might be interested in running for the presidency again. for a guy who's upside down in the approval ratings, a pew poll has him down at 37%, i just kept thinking last night, again, as a guy that likes joanne awfe an a, he's not doing a lot for his own approval ratings.

do you disagree with that? >> reporter: yeah, i hear what you're saying. because you assume the debate -- you know what i saw last night from some liberal folks on twitter? you know, what was interesting last night is the liberal folks on twitter were obsessed with joe biden last night, and the conservative folks i follow on twitter were obsessed with joe biden last night, was more about biden, less about ryan. but i saw for the first time from some liberal elites, if you will, on twitter, biden 2016. i had never seen that in my life before. i've never seen that really teased out before. i think that just shows you how badly parts of the base of the democratic party needed this therapy session that biden gave them last night. >> that's great. >> i mean, my feeling, again, is that he brought it all to the table last night. and you said if you like joe biden, you loved him last night. chuck, who doesn't like him? honestly, who doesn't? seriously. >> let's show the pew approval poll from yesterday.

>> reporter: 51% that don't. >> here's the deal, though. and i think this is an important point, tom. listen, if you know joe biden, you love joe biden. >> you really like him. >> and i'm going to say again, i can understand, like barack obama's poll numbers went down, because i know joe. i could never understand why he's not -- why he's ever upside down in the polls. but he is. it's like 37% approve, 51% disapprove in the latest pew poll. and that's why i was asking this question. but if you know joe, you love him. here it is. if you know joe, you love him. but there are a lot of people out there that don't like him. >> i think he's a victim of his ol excesses. he just can't contain himself. this is how he was raised. we arrived in washington the same year. he was that way when he arrived, and he's been that way every year since then. you remember that it was clint eastwood who said joe biden, he's a body with a smile. and he's become a caricature on the talk shows, you know, when

you want to get a quick laugh, david letterman or jon stewart, they invoke joe biden. on the other hand, in fairness to him as well as to paul ryan, these are two irish catholic political warriors who come from different generations. both athletic. they both have a passion about what they're doing. and my own guess is at the end of the evening, one of the tests of a vice presidential debate is, can they handle the presidency? do we want them to be a heartbeat away? and i think in both cases, people would have to say you can have them in that job, and if something happens to the president, they could step it up. that was my judgment. >> mark, a lot of times these vp debates show that one is not ready to pass that threshold test last night, there's no doubt. joe biden has been in washington since he was 29. >> yeah. this was a threshold test. biden's obviously passed it. he's been there. it was a real threshold test for ryan. to your point about biden, you're right, people that know him like him, generally.

but a lot of people watching didn't know him. i'd say that a lot of people -- compared to gore stylistic stuff in that debate, biden was a lot worse. he's getting a pass because he's joe and obama got a low performance last night. >> because we know and like joe so much. that's a question how it plays to the middle. >> i think he's interrupting. >> mika, i just don't think you should be laughing during a discussion about thermonuclear war with iran. >> and the discussion about libya, we watched it again, he was amused at some of paul ryan's approaches toward the concern over iran, and quite frankly totally misrepresenting -- >> this is a very serious issue. however amused you are, it's about tone as well. >> what do you do when your opponent misrepresents the president's position and exactly the sanctions being put on iran? do you go after him fervently, this young guy on the stage rip

him to shreds and then get criticized for being overbearing? no matter what he does -- >> i thought that in terms of content, he was very effective on iran. it was the demeanor that he showed. and these are always a combination of the two. people are impressionistic when they look at these debates. and i don't know how this will play out eventually, but sometimes you have to dial that down with instincts. >> let's show that. >> so when you talk i don't break into laughter, for example. >> but i do. here's the interaction -- is this on iran, alex? >> yeah, it's his reaction to ryan's position. >> reaction to paul ryan. take a look. >> this is a bunch of stuff. look, here's the deal. >> what does that mean, a bunch of stuff? >> well, it means it's simply inaccurate. >> it's irish. >> we irish call it malarky. >> a bunch of stuff, mika. >> exasperation on the part of biden. >> yeah. >> but, look. i think there was something else

that, you know, what you saw from biden over and over again was gosh, i can't believe these guys. they just don't ever tell the truth. and i can't let him -- instead of i think at times it would have been okay to dig in, be intense and take apart the argument. tom said it, this is the excesses of being a longtime pall. one thing biden missed, and you saw it in the exchange over unemployment in scranton and janeville, let's look at the economic record. i think they want to spend the remaining weeks telling the american people particularly in the middle, things are getting better, and you feel like things are getting better. everybody feels like things are getting a bit better, that we're going in the right direction. i think that sentiment to the extent that it's taking hold in a state like ohio is critically important right now to the campaign. last night was about -- was about the bar fight. it was about fighting over the 47% and the tax rate. it was very much their role as top surrogates in that regard rather than the larger message. and i suspect that "a," the president on tuesday is not that

aggressive in a biden fashion. and two, he wants to talk a lot more about the general optimism on the economy. >> here's -- >> let's go to chuck really quickly. he's been trying to get in. tom, we'll come back to you. chuck, this debate about the smiling, the laughing, whether you're talking about libya or iran, we've heard two different takes. what's yours? >> reporter: no, i would just say that the difference between, i think, gore and biden is this was -- this sort of fit biden's persona even for those that didn't like biden. and i think this idea there are people -- when gore did what he did, there was still this sort of sense he didn't really know who he was, weren't quite sure who he was. remember, we weren't sure, what's he wearing? earth tones now. what is he doing? you know, there was this sense of he wasn't comfortable in his own skin. so it added, i think, a layer of issues for gore. that isn't what this was for biden. so i think when mark says he's getting a pass, i think it's simply because this is who he

is, right? if you get hit harder for these moments i think sometimes when it's out of character. >> tom brokaw? >> well, i agree with that. i disagree with mark. i thought that al gore did himself a lot more damage than joe biden did last night because it was extraordinarily condescending as opposed to this was kind of goofy, what we saw last night. >> right. >> but what did not come up last night, and i think that the country is waiting to hear from that, my impression going around the country, people get it. these are serious times. and what did not come up last night was the forecast of the imf last week that the global economy is headed in one direction, and it's not up at the moment. there are some really serious projections that are under way. and things are getting better in states like ohio, but they're not getting better in a lot of the key battleground states in terms of people having confidence and hope in their future. i think that the country needs to be prepared to be giving back some stuff. and that's going to be the hard,

hard test of not just the next two debates but the next term of whoever gets to be president is how we begin to dial down the sense of entitlement across the board in this country and how we rearrange that. and i think both sides have gone to kind of their extreme positions. and it's in the middle somewhere. >> yeah. absolutely. >> reporter: downsizing democracy. that's what dick lamb calls it. that was a great line from the former governor of colorado, how do you have this debate about downsizing democracy? it's a tough conversation. >> that wasn't had last night, on the democratic side, joe biden wouldn't even talk about raising the retirement age. >> i'll agree with that. >> and on the republican side, you've got a republican ticket that still can't explain their $5 trillion tax cut. people giving things away remains sort of the ploy right now. >> yeah. chuck todd, thank you so much. we'll see you on "the daily rundown." tom brokaw, stay with us, if you can.

david, can you stay? >> sure. up next, it's his fault, huh? we're going to bring in congressman chris van hole ton get h chris van hollen to get his reaction to last night. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. hey. hey eddie. i brought your stuff. you don't have to do this. yes i do. i want you to keep this. it'd be weird. take care. you too. [ sighs ] so how did it go? he's upset. [ male announcer ] spend less time at gas stations with best in class fuel economy. it's our most innovative altima ever. ♪

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joe and i are from similar towns. he's from scranton, pennsylvania. i'm from janesville, wisconsin. do you know what the unemployment rate is in scranton? >> i sure do. >> it's 10%. do you know what it was the day you guys came in? 8%. that's the way it's going. >> that's not the way it's going. it's going down. >> a two-minute answer. >> all right. is you know what? >> i think that is a sign of exasperation that's an attempt

to belittle ryan but actually shows a little bit more -- i think too much strain on the part of biden. you know, as a consummate pro, if you've got the facts on your side, you don't lose your cool at all. hey, take this on. that's just plain wrong. this is the wrong way to look at it. it was just over the top in terms of who is this guy? who is this young turk? he doesn't know what he's talking about. and that was, i think, just one too many when, you know, ryan was focused, you know, he was making a very focused attack there, and, you know, debate it out. debate it out. >> all right. so let's blame it on our next guest. with us now from danville, kentucky, the ranking member of the house budget committee and the man who played the role of paul ryan during biden's mock debates, congressman chris van hollen. >> little-known fact, he was actually -- he actually got on this, what, px90 routine, curls, wore a baseball cap. >> looking pretty buff. >> he is buff. >> eat your wheaties.

eat your wheaties. >> all right. so chris, i guess first of all, what is the take inside those who were preparing for the debate inside the campaign on how it went last night? i'm assuming they thought biden did quite fine. >> yeah, look. i think everybody thought it was a home run. what you saw was the passionate joe biden, the joe biden who fights for the middle class, the guy who came from scranton, pennsylvania, who wants to make sure everybody gets a fair shake. that came across passionately. and he also marshalled the fact to show that the roim/ryan plan would be a sucker punch to the middle class, whether it was seniors on medicare or investing in our kids' education. all in all, i thought it was great for the american people and further crystallized the issues here. >> i'm trying to find the must-read i didn't get to before about his expressions. oh, frank bruni, "new york times." seldom have the words -- it's sort of like bless your heart -- seldom have the words, my friend, been laced with so much arsenic. joe biden used them again and

again thursday night in reference to paul ryan even as he painted the young congressman as shallow and misinformed. seldom has a split screen yielded such vigorous facial calisthenics. when ryan talked, biden smiled with disbelief. he smiled even wider with derision. he whipped his head this way and that, laughing scornfully, glancing heavenward in exasperation, it said everything about his strategy in the wake of president obama's soporific performance in denver. biden wasn't going to be accused of underreacting. he was going to react all over the place, with his expressions, his exclamations and plenty of interruptions. was he over the top as some are saying this morning? >> no, i don't think he was over the top. i thought what you saw was joe biden's passion for these issues. he cares deeply about them. he speaks from the heart. and that's what you got last

night. and then there were sometimes when paul ryan said things that were outrageous. and any normal person would respond, as the vice president did, with malarky. david gregory mentioned the fact that, you know, paul ryan said that unemployment around the country was over 10% just like in janesville, wisconsin. we all know that's not true. it's now at 7.8%. republicans have been campaigning for all these months, you know, saying that we wouldn't get it below 8%. it is. they just don't apparently like the fact that the economy is improving. but that's the reality. we've got a long way to go. but republicans are proposing nothing less than the policies that did get us into the mess in the first place. and i thought that came through very clearly last night. >> david gregory. >> congressman, i just wonder to what extent you think last night will play it forward to next tuesday. how does the president build on last night, from your point of view, in terms of taking the fight substantively to governor romney, which will be not only an important debate that's

watched by so many people, but will frame how the contest is waged over the final weeks? >> well, i think the president will be more aggressive in terms of facts. after all, in the last debate, the president essentially listened as mitt romney reinvented himself, and mitt romney reinvented all their proposals. let's just take the tax proposal, for example. last night, paul ryan was finally given a chance to explain it. he was asked about it a week earlier on national tv. he said he needed more time. last night it was clear that all the time in the world wouldn't give them the ability to explain it. and what we now know is that while they would keep things like the mortgage interest deduction on the table and they would keep the health deductions on the table, the one thing that mitt romney has said, he absolutely will not change, is the tax preference that allows mitt romney to pay a lower effective tax rate than most americans. the capital gains rate.

that's the one thing that they've said they will not touch. everything else that helps the middle class is on the table from their perspective. so since they won't tell us what they're going to do, at least we now know what they won't do. they won't touch the stuff that helps mitt romney the most. so i think that, you know, the vice president has teed this up very well for the president next week. >> tom? >> congressman, there was a question last night that the vice president would not answer about raising the age of eligibility for social security. would you vote in favor of that? >> what i understood the vice president to say actually was that he harkened back to the reagan/tip o'neill discussions and said that he and the president were willing to consider a lot of ideas so long as the republicans came off this position that they would ask not even one more penny from the wealthiest people in the country to help reduce the deficit. as you know, the republicans have been absolutist on that. i heard joe biden say last

night, look, we're willing to -- i heard him say, we're willing to consider these other ideas just like we cut a trillion dollars in spending last year, but it's time to come to the table. when your position is not one more penny. >> that's a separate issue altogether. we're talking about social security. and we're talking about the fiscal reality of what's going to happen not that many years down the road. so it seems to me the country does deserve an answer on that from both parties, for that matter, about why not, for the next generation, move up the retirement, give them the life expectation now? why is that such a tough question to answer and not have it tied to what you're going to do with the rest of the taxes? >> oh, because i think even if you look at social security, the romney/ryan position has been that in order to deal with the social security issue, they will only deal with it by cutting benefits. i mean, that's been their position because as romney said, not one additional penny of new revenue. what the vice president said

very clearly last night was that one way you could deal with some of the social security issue was to deal with the revenue part. and i thought he said very clearly that if republicans were willing to come off their position, that they could have a conversation. the president and the vice president would consider these ideas. >> so chris, what's the answer? let's just talk about you. you're a member of congress. you're a leader in the democratic party. would you consider raising the retirement age as a means to saving the program? >> what i have said, and i say it again here, is that i'm looking -- willing to look at all constructive ideas so long as you take a balanced approach. i've been very clear. i support the sort of balanced framework set out in simpson-bowles in terms of the mix of revenue and cuts. i think that ratio of revenue to cuts and all the other assumptions that they made in getting there is the right way to go. >> this is the question i have about -- why can't they -- why can't you just say yes? why?

>> i've said yes to the simpson-bowles framework. i am saying yes to the simpson-bowles framework. because my view is that they set out the ratio of cuts to revenue. we have said we're willing to look -- a lot of the cuts we made a trillion dollars already. >> of course. >> but mitt romney said -- let's be clear -- he said he would not take $10 in cuts to $1 revenue. we haven't said we're not going to take cuts. we just did a trillion dollars in cuts. we haven't said we're not going to look at other reform ideas. we just said you have to take a balanced approach. and i think that's what the american people want. >> all right. congressman chris van hollen, thank you very much. it's good to have you on the show. >> thank you. >> thank you, chris. >> good to be here. thanks. >> so -- >> i think it's what everybody wants. >> the follow-ups were great. those were great questions. and romney and the romney campaign has talked about increasing the eligibility age, and they've talked about means testing as well. they're not making it conditional. >> and on the other side, you

know, democrats are saying we're not going to talk about raising the retirement age of social security or medicare until you guys say you're going to raise taxes. and tom, you make a great point. they are two separate issues. and they're two separate issues because even if you raise taxes to 90% on the rich, social security and medicare are still going under. republicans, on the other side -- it is about cutting -- the republicans on the other side won't talk about raising taxes. and so we have this standoff. and everybody's staring at each other, and nobody will come on tv and tell the truth. we've got to do everything. >> it's that standoff and those issues that so frustrate the country. a lot of people don't want to give up anything they've got right now, and for good reason in some instances because of their income levels and the kind of conditions in which they live. but others are willing to make some changes. i mean, i've had very prominent businessmen say to me, look, i say to my friends, are we just going to expect all of this, or are we going to make our

grandchildren pay for it? if you've got one bowl of breakfast food, do you take it for yourself or share it about your grandchildren was one of the metaphors that they used. other people out there understand that to save the system, there have to be some profound changes. and at the moment, we're kind of operating at the two extremes, and we need to find a way through the middle of it. >> political strategy, winning and all of those things that you have to do to stay in the game, if chris's answer or someone asks you, you're running for office, do you have to raise the eligibility age, blah, blah, blah, what if you just said yes? >> yes. >> would that hurt with voters? >> everybody knows social security, the numbers don't add up over the next generation. everybody knows medicare and medicaid is going bankrupt. everybody knows that defense spending is way over the top. the numbers are not sustainable. everybody knows we need to expand the tax base. we need to raise -- figure out a way to raise some more revenue. you can make the tax system fairer, you can make it more flatter, raise more revenue. everybody knows we have to do all these things. and david, you have politicians

on both sides. the $5 trillion don't add up. joe biden saying i'm not going to raise the retirement age doesn't add up, and everybody knows it. >> what strikes me about that, you've seen john boehner say raising the retirement age is okay. i find it fairly uncontroversial. the controversial part is nobody wants to get in the boat until both people get in the boat. and that's the dysfunction of washington right now. >> and i've got to say, mika, you know, people come to me, you know, what i hear, as a republican, as a conservative, is democratic party whose answer to everything, let's just raise taxes on the rich and everything will be fine. 9/11 hit and george bush didn't want to raise taxes. he cut taxes. and everything that happened ten years later, all george w. bush's fault. and now republicans, they could take care of medicare, medicaid, social security, if they just raise taxes on the rich. >> i've never heard that. >> that's all they talk about. barack obama's plan for the next four years is raising taxes on

the rich. >> it's not the solution to everything, and i don't think it's being touted as such. >> yes, it is. if you want to talk about equity, fine. but please, raising taxes on the rich have nothing to do with -- let me finish -- saving social security, medicare, medicaid, this country. it won't do it. >> totally agree, but i do think that the president, his campaign and democrats are talking about equity. we're talking about a fair shot. >> right. well, that's fine. >> by the middle class. >> you just made my point. if you want to talk about equity, then -- okay, great. let's have the debate over raising taxes on the rich. if you want to talk about saving social security for the next generation saving medicare for the next generation, saving the u.s. economy for the next couple of months, just raising taxes on the rich does nothing. >> no. >> except make people feel better about themselves. >> i'm watching congressman can cantor in the background. i'm trying to read his expression. >> coming up, representative eric cantor.

keep it here on "morning joe." you'll find out. well, if it isn't mr. margin. mr. margin? don't be modest, bob. you found a better way to pack a bowling ball. that was ups. and who called ups? you did, bob. i just asked a question. it takes a long time to pack a bowling ball. the last guy pitched more ball packers. but you... you consulted ups. you found a better way. that's logistics. that's margin. find out what else ups knows. i'll do that. you're on a roll. that's funny. i wasn't being funny, bob. i know.

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choose unlimited rewards with 2% cash back or double miles on every purchase, every day! what's in your wallet? here's your invoice. to republicans and democrats who have worked together on this, i understand you guys aren't used to doing bipartisan deals. >> we told each other what we were going to do. here are the things we're going to cut. here's what he said. >> fill in the details. >> fill in the details. >> that's how you get things done. let me say it this way. >> that's coming from a republican congressman working bipartisanly, 7% rating? >> okay. with us now from virginia, republican representative from virginia and house majority leader, congressman eric cantor. i believe he is one of them, isn't he? >> what, you mean one of the young guns? >> yes. >> one of the weight lifters? you and paul -- are there any

pictures of you lifting weights like there are of paul? he's pretty strut. >> no, i can assure you not. >> are you sure? >> no photo sessions, i can assure you that. let's talk about the debate last night. obviously, we are debating it here as well, debating the big debate. we didn't really get a lot of details on entitlement reform, none did we get a lot of details on that $5 trillion tax cut. was the debate short on details last night? >> well, i mean, certainly the -- i think what we saw was two very different sort of paths that each side would take going forward after this election. and i think there's always room for more discussion, but, you know, what you saw is you saw paul ryan again and again go back to what mitt romney will do to help people get out of this terrible economic situation we're in. he talked about mitt's five-point plan consistently. and i think, you know, if you

take a step back and think about what the swing voters are looking for, they're looking for an answer as to how we can make life work again. and i don't think there's any question that paul put forward that vision in a very clear way. and when, you know, joe biden continued to interrupt paul and continue to get in his face, i think people are sort of questioning, okay, listen. stop it for a second. let me hear what you're going to do differently, mr. vice president, than what you and the president have done over the last four years. >> tom brokaw. >> congressman, one of the things that i'm struck by on your side is the fact that both governor romney and congressman ryan say we are not going to make any cuts in the defense budget. it is the largest single piece of the federal budget, and i don't know any chief petty officer or master sergeant for that matter who wouldn't say, look, there are some ways to find some savings here without diminishing in any way our capacity to protect the national security of the united states. is it completely off the table?

and if it is, how do you ever get to the deficit reduction that you need to without making some of the trims and making it more efficient? >> no, tom, it's never been completely off the table, and it's just not an accurate statement. we have always said that everything should be on the table. and i, for one, would never say you can defend every dollar and cent being spent at the pentagon. but what we do know right now is the question before us is is looming sequester. and that has serious implications so far as our ability as americans to be seeming a global power because if that sequester hits, i don't think there's any question that we'll have to rethink that. we've got a perspective right now, it's three-prong. it's the china sea, it's the gulf where most of our assets are, and it's our homeland. and if this sequester hit, we're going to have to seriously rethink the ability to have a presence and be able to maintain that perspective. and you also see, back to the

issue that most voters are looking at, the sequester is going to mean a lot of job losses. and i can tell you here in virginia, 19% of our jobs come from the defense department. and the defense industrial establishment, losses. 19% in virginia comes from the defense establishment. you've got the largest naval base in the world. most voters are wondering where is the sequester but let's do it in a responsible way. >> it's willie geist. you said that you will not raise taxes on any american. what will you do in the lame duck session? will you come to the middle and entertain, at least rthe idea o a tax cut? >> willie, i want to pick up on some discussion that i heard in the earlier segment. and that is, the raising of taxes and dealing with the

question of spending, that has been the hangup for the last two years and the president himself said back in -- two years ago, that there were going to be two questions left for this election which was going to be health care, the most disproportionate part of the spending at the federal level and taxes. and no question that this election is about taxes. we heard it last night and the vice president continues to say one thing that they will absolutely do is raise taxes on small businesses. he did not deny the fact that that's what their plan is. and i think you've got to question, why is it that that's the answer right now when we have such a difficult economy? so, yes, we need to all come together but what we've seen as republicans, help us fix the problem. we know what the problem is with the unfunded obligations at the federal level. it is the demographics of this country together with the increasing costs of health care

entitlement. >> all right. >> if you help us fix it, that means when you insist on raising taxes, at least you can tell the people that want to pay more tack taxes, they are going to retire the debt. >> i wonder if it's possible to get a yes or no to this, if there is one. but congressman, is there room for cut in the defense department? >> absolutely. i have said and we have actually put into our budget the recognition that you can't defend every dollar and cent being spent at the pentagon and that we understand the need for everybody, including the pentagon, to do more with less. >> let me just follow up on that, congressman. conservative senator from oklahoma, tom coburn has suggested at least $85 million cuts. can we start there?

>> i'm not sure where tom coburn comes up with that number but let's look at the mission that our defense department wants to support and make sure that the men and women have what they need and our weapons are efficient for today. and it's got to be commensurate with today's threat, not decades ago. >> congressman, we're way over time but go ahead. >> it's not a quick one. >> eric cantor, thank you for being with us. still ahead, senior advisers of the romney campaign, ed gill lep see. and we will be right back. wç

tom brokaw, let's talk billion sam givens. >> never lost an election. on the 40th anniversary of d-day i walked the beaches of omaha and i was brought to my knee. i went to a small cafe in normandy and this big rangy florida congressman said, tom,

sam givens. he said, i was here 40 years ago. i said, what happened? the entire cafe went silent. he back to get teary, which is unusual for sam. his voice got quiet. he thought the invasion had failed. he was fighting from farmhouse to farmhouse and they didn't see anything coming up over the horizon and then we got to be very good friends. he was the leading member of the will lyndon johnson war on poverty. he was extraordinarily popular. huge outpourings of tributes to him. >> and inspiration? >> and inspiration. he left congress because he could no longer work across party lines. >> tom brokaw, thank you so much. >> thank you, tom. when we come back, complete

analysis of last night's debate with some of the best in the business. mark hall principle and joe pine. keep it here on "morning joe."

the only way you can find $5 trillion in loopholes is cut the mortgage deduction for middle class people, cut the health care deduction for middle class people, take away their ability

to get a tax break to send their kids to college. >> is he wrong about that? >> he is wrong about that. >> how is that? >> you can cut tax rates by 20% for middle class taxpayers. >> not mathematically possible. >> it is mathematically possible. it's precisely what we're proposing. >> it has never been done before. >> jack kennedy, ronald reagan. >> oerk, now you're jack kennedy? >> good morning, it's 8:00 on the east coast and 5:00 on the west coast. time to wake up, everyone. we have howard dean, mark halperin in danville, kentucky. >> you talk to republicans and they will say joe biden was rude and obnoxious. you talk to democrats and democrats will say, you know, biden was fantastic, he was a

fighter and he won. >> exactly. snap or are c poll shows 48% of voters thought paul ryan won and 44% think joe biden was the winner. and the same poll shows 53% say paul ryan was more likeable and 43% for joe biden. >> i'm not surprised that paul ryan came across as more likeable. joe had to make up for lost ground in the first debate. he had to come out as the fighter. >> what's interesting is that the cbs poll shows biden winning by a wide margin. i think it was something like 50 to 33 or something like that. so i'm a little -- i think the cnn poll is a little funny here. >> i think the cbs poll is funny. i'm not sure if people even watched the debate that were polled in watched that were in

the cbs poll. >> the interesting thing is, i think biden did what he had to do. >> why don't we watch some clips. >> really? you don't want to give an opinion? okay. >> what's wrong, mika? you're being so rude. >> yes, i think biden just completely ate him for dinner and spit him out like a little piece of something. i don't know what. seriously, it's kind of clear to me. >> i didn't see that? >> really? because you have very clear opinions after the last debate but you have very unclear opinions about this debate. i think it's because you're uncomfort wi uncome comfortable.

>> i think paul ryan and mark mckinnon said it last night, paul ryan held serve when had he to serve and joe biden went out and he was joe mcinrow. i think joe biden came it to him last night. i think in the long run mark mckinnon it wasn't so good for joe biden. >> he did his job, which was to fire up the base and show passion. ryan also did his job by making it clear that he is calm and competent and he could hold the job and sit in the big chair. the question is, what happened for those voters in the middle? and i think most of those voters hadn't seen paul ryan before and they liked what they saw. that was reflected in the polling. they thought that he was confident and calm. >> did he look too young next to

joe biden? laugh at him, dismiss him. make him -- marginalize him. did that work? >> no, it didn't. he certainly held his own. the story was all about joe biden. the reason, joe, you're right -- and the reason was so important was not because he trounced him. you had a very dispirited base and what joe did was turn that around and among other reasons people are voting today. a number of states around america. and i think what joe biden was able to do was to put a lot of pep back in the democratic party and i don't think it has long-term consequences. it's not going to affect november 6th very much but helps

with the time that they need. >> mark halperin, how do you think it went down? is is there a clear winner here? >> you know, i think they both did fine, the way that you've all been discussing. they both did well for their base and the democrats could not afford another loss, given what happened with the president in november. i made congressman ryan -- i gave him a slight edge only because the strong sinker for a lotf people were the mannerisms for the vice president was off-putting. he didn't show enough of his positive attributes. i thought the vice president was a little bit off-putting at times. paul ryan, you know, we've seen a series of vice presidential debates where the dynamic was -- could be more junior person schooled. think about sarah palin, john edwards, be dan quayle, i thought paul ryan incredibly impressive.

biden dominated the debate but there wasn't a moment when paul ryan had a deer in the headlights moment. >> i think there was one moment that was bad for paul ryan. and you could tell joe biden was ready for it and that was regarding the stimulus program he was against. he said i've got two letters asking for your money and paul didn't have an answer for that. i think joe biden's out and out was he did not get the libya story right. nobody asked us for more -- well, they had just had -- they had just had hearings saying that we begged the state department for more money and we knew we were in trouble. >> it continues to amaze me and many people that they can't -- from the president to the vice president to the u.s. ambassador to the u.n., they can't get a coherent story about what happened now a month ago, more than a month ago. >> and all the vice president said was we're going to get to

the bottom of it and i love what becky noonan said, oh, good. >> the night began right out of the box, martha raddatz went right to libya and to benghazi that killed the americans. >> it took the president two weeks to acknowledge that this was a terrorist attack. look, if we're hit by terrorists, we're going to call it for what it is, a terrorist attack. this benghazi issue would be a tragedy in and of itself but unfortunately it's indicative of a larger problem and it's the unraveling of the obama foreign policy. >> with all due respect, that's a bunch of ma lar key. he cut the budget below $300 million than what we were asking for. at the time we were told

exactly -- we said exactly what the intelligent committee told us that they knew. that was the assessment. and as the intill jent committee changed their view, we made it clear they changed their view. that's why we said we will get to this. usually when there's a crisis, we pull together as a nation. even before we knew what happened to the ambassador, the governor was holding a press conference. that's not presidential leadership. >> okay. what do you think paul ryan could have done to take more advantage of that moment on that top hispan topic? >> i would have circled back and said, you're wrong. first of all, that's why he's smiling at the end of that. listen, that answer was off putting for two reasons. one, he threw the intelligence community under the bus and it's just not a smart thing to do. and the second thing is -- yeah, i'll come to you howard in a second. and the second thing is is --

i'll direct it to you, howard. he got the facts completely wrong when he said nobody told us that we needed more troops. the people on the ground were begging for more troops and didn't get them. >> so here's the problem. we talked about this before. if you want to see who wins a debate and who doesn't, turn off the sound and watch them. on that clip, ryan was a disaster. he does have a deer in the headlights and biden is standing there making his points. biden in that clip i saw biden as a president of the united states talking about security, which is something he knows far more about. >> this one right here? >> yeah. >> it doesn't matter. it's like romney making up all that stuff last two weeks ago about the $5 trillion. the reason romney did well in that debate is because he said it with conviction and surety. >> he's just saying, i'm looking at paul ryan here and i know what he's thinking, i cannot believe -- >> right. which is exactly what barack obama was thinking two weeks ago

and didn't do him any good. joe biden in this clip, if you turn off the sound, he looks like the president of the united states talking. you can dispute the facts. that's what people saw. >> i think this is a problematic issue that's going to continue. >> it is. beyond the debate, i guess the question that willie has been asking, i've been asking around the table, why can't they get the story straight on benghazi? >> they can't and i happen to agree with you, joe, and not governor bean. i think the story was very complicated. i thought that was one of his low points. on the other side, i thought paul ryan, who was the great tax expert, he is wrong on the $5 trillion tax cut when he keeps saying that it's been done before. nothing like this has ever been done before, including the reagan '86 act. they are telling you exactly which tax cuts they will have and secret for now we're going to tell you how to offset them

dollar for dollar. paul ryan is going to be caught up on that as we go on. >> mark halperin? >> just to go back to the libya thing. these have been adjudicated and fought after for months. this libya story is still evolving. governor romney hit it very hard last night and didn't get a lot of attention because of the debate. if there's anything out of the debate that i think could have residence and be a moving target going forward, it's the topic of benghazi and i think the vice president may have put down some marks there that are going to cause some problems for the administration going forward. >> so mika, what do you think -- talk about how you think joe biden last night energized the democratic base. because we're talking about a lot of different things. and picking apart policy more than the politics of it. why do you think talking to

democrats that you spoke to last night is big for the party? >> look, what i saw was what joe biden always does when push comes to shove. people talk to his gaffes, about his loose, fun personality. but when push comes to shove, joe biden comes through and his washington experience comes through and his ability to engage head to head comes through and his intellect comes through and foreign policy experience comes through. and you know what? he said that sort of semi-monologue about get out of the way, the 47%, that hit home. he did everything that you kind of wish you saw in the last debate and then at the same time, some people might have thought he was smiling too much or whatever, going after style. you know, if he wasn't, he would have come off as overly grouchy and strong and cruel. he did everything he was supposed to.

>> i think people needed him to get jacked up. >> yeah, i think he did what he had to do for the democratic party. i don't think he helped his own but i think he did what he had to do. he was a great team player. >> i think they both in a way did what they had to do. joe biden didn't do any damage to the president and paul ryan sat on the stage and those of us that cover washington and politics know paul ryan. we've seen him in different settings but most of the country has never seen him on a big stage and i think many people would say, he sat there, went head to head and toe to toe with the vice president of the united states. so i think in the long run this won't matter a great deal. i don't know if the rest of you agree. we get past this in the next presidential debate. i think this will slide past it. >> i agree. i think the pressure is really on the president. but i'm really looking for either of these candidates and

campaigns to make tough choices and tough decisions and there were two times last night where they both missed an opportunity. one when joe biden was asked about extending the age he will yeah built and martha said one years, two years? and he did not answer the question. the average life span has increased 15 years since those laws were put in place and we've only changed in one year. paul ryan missed the opportunity on the whole specifics of the 5 trillion. it's a great idea that governor romney came up with in the last debate or a week or two ago about the idea of a basket -- capped basket of deduck deductions. you have to decide whether it's your home mortgage but it's capped at 60%. i'm surprised -- whatever it is, i'm surprised that ryan didn't mention it. >> the problem with that is that the numbers still don't add up. >> just say cap the deductions

and bring it down and whatever works, it works, or you bring down the tax -- >> let's take a look at some of the int racks. the two candidates sparred on who has the best interests at heart for the middle class when it comes to the tax burden. >> the middle class will pay less and people making $1 million or more will pay more. we are arguing that the bush tax cuts for the wealthy ought to be allowed to expire. they are holding hostage the middle class tax cut to the super wealthy. and on top of that, they've got another tax cut coming. >> look, if you taxed every person and successful small business making over $250 tho,0t 100%, it would only run the government for 100 days. we'd still have a $3 billion deficit. you see, there are not enough

rich people and small businesses to tax to pay for all their spending. and so the next time you hear them say, don't worry about it, we'll get a few wealthy people to pay their fair share, watch out middle class, the tax bill is coming to you. >> so, al -- what do you think, mika? >> al, go ahead. >> you laughed at that line. a lot of people thought that was a strong line. >> okay. it was ridiculous. >> it's actually ridiculous -- both sides are being ridiculous on this because neither one is going to balance the budget. this is the biggest failure in the campaign on both sides is that neither side has made any significant attempt to balance the budget and it's outrageously stupid and what the president is doing is inadequate. >> when we come back, ed gillespie joins us live from

kentucky. and then joe cline. and don't miss the weekend review. first, bill karins has the weekend forecast. >> this is a lot of time where people have their plans, whether you're enjoying the leaves or nice cool weather. we have thunderstorms rolling through the central plains all the way from tennessee back down into oklahoma. oklahoma city, the showers and storms are knocking on your door and they are starting to head down in the northern portions of alabama. here's how we look today. not too many issues. i mentioned storms just now. light rain coming in there today. a dry day in southern california, unlike yesterday. and if you're in arizona or new mexico, you're dealing with numerous showers and storms. but the big weather headline is potential severe weather outbreak from iowa to kansas to missouri. we're going to watch out for the potential of strong storms and large hail and a few tornadoes. this is almost like a

spring-like setup with the warm air out ahead of it and cold air plunging behind. there is a chance for severe weather. the east coast looks great and then on sunday we're nearly perfect in areas of the eastern seaboard. the other story out there, the northwest. after three month of dry weather and sunshine, it's come to an end. the rainy season begins today and continues all weekend long. back to the bloom and um gloom and with the spark cash card from capital one,

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here's the problem. they got caught with their hand in the cookie jar. their own actuary from the administration came to congress saying one out of six nursing homes are going to go out of business as result of this. >> that's not what they said. >> 7.4 million seniors are going to lose the current benefit that they have. >> that didn't happen. more people signed up. more people signed up for medicare advantage after the change. nobody is being shut down. >> i know you're under a lot of duress to make up for the lot of round but i think people would be better served if we don't keep interrupting each other. >> look, the party has not been

big on this since the beginninging. folks, use your commonsense. who do you trust on this? a man who would raise it $6400 a year, knowing it and passing it and romney saying he will pass it. >> the static was misleading. this is what politicians do when they don't have a record to run on. try to scare people from voting for you. >> welcome back on the set. joe klein. joe, we all have different opinions about this. the reviews are more mixed. it's sort of a split decision. what's your take on what you saw last night? >> you know, i like biden a lot better when he was pitching than when he was catching, you know, when he was talking rather than when he was listening. i thought that on the substance

of it, he really nailed ryan awful lot of times but when you look at it, this debate showed the weaknesses of both parties. on the republican side, they are pedalling snake oil. on the democratic side, they are peddling from an empty pack and ryan's most effective moments were when he pointed out that biden didn't have any answers on a lot of issues. biden's most effective moments was when he pointed out that ryan's answers were nonsense. so in that sense i thought it was a draw. biden was more passionate, more real. ryan was a little geeky, i thought. >> what are you talking about? he did these strings of statistics that were mind numbing without any humanity intervening. >> oh, my god, the facts. come on, man. >> biden had an awful lot of facts there, too. >> a lot of them were wrong.

>> wow. >> you want to talk about wrong? >> i don't think we even want to go there. >> can you believe that joe biden said that, hey, nobody ever asked us to send more troops, more security to libya for -- i mean, come on. we just had testimony on capitol hill to that fact. >> well, i think that the libya situation is awkward for the administration but it's a tiny, tiny piece of a much larger picture which is the effort that we've made against al qaeda over the last four years, which has been astonishingly effective. >> okay. mika in. >> i liked him on afghanistan. i assume you did, too. he was extremely clear. >> i actually like joe biden's view on afghanistan and have for four years. i don't like the president's, though. let's bring in the senior adviser to the campaign for

romney. ed gillespie. there's a lot of back and forth which is what you expect after these debates. this is -- this gives both sides something to chew on for the next week, doesn't it? >> look, joe, i thought clearly that congressman ryan last night added to the momentum coming out of the first debate. look, as you've noted on the program, there's pretty serious questionses that came out of the debate last night. i mean, either the former regional security with responsibility for libya was wrong in his sworn testimony about the repeated requests for more security about benghazi or the vice president wasn't telling the truth last night in the debate before the american people. pretty serious question here that i think is going to have to be resolved at some point today, i would think. i don't think the white house

can hold on this. something's got to give here. somebody's not telling the truth. >> it's willie geist. so what's at the heart of this libya question here? what are you suggesting about the president, about the white house when we ask these questions? >> well, like i said, there is clear contradiction, willie, where they said that they did request for security for the ambassador and for benghazi and what vice president biden said last night in the debate, which is that they didn't. and like i say, one of those two things is not the truth. so it's a real problem. >> ed, do you think, then, this is ignorance on the part of the white house or some kind of coverup? that's what i'm getting at. >> i don't know. i think that's one of the things that people need to ask today. both of those statements can't be true.

>> ed mckinnon here. i thought congressman ryan did a competent job last night. i thought he missed one opportunity which is when he was asked for specifics about tax rates and i thought you rolled out a good idea a week or so ago about the bundling of the deductions, putting in a basket and putting a cap on that and he didn't hit on that. do you want to address that now? >> well, governor romney put that out as an approach to how you could offset the bringing down the 20% rates and that's an idea that ought to be on the table. but as you know, mark, there's been six independent studies that demonstrated improved that you can lower the rates and offset them with deductions without raising them on the middle class which is the principle of the tax reform

proposal. and you wouldn't shift the share of income tax burden paid by upper income taxpayers. look, these details have to be laid out but you lay out the principles and work with members of congress on both sides of the aisle to get to the details of it. if you get back and forth in the midst of the campaign, you lock republicans on one side, the democrats on the other and you can't get it done in the legislative process. governor romney is known as a successful governor in massachusetts, how to work across the aisle to get results. >> so, joe, it says that congressman ryan vested vice president biden but i would think that that would only be the case if he took out the conversation about iran, the conversation about the two letters that paul ryan sent to vice president biden about trying to get money -- stimulus money and also boosting security

for embassies, which paul ryan voted against. i thought biden was loaded to talk to paul ryan about his record and where he stands. >> i think you made my point, which is if you're a democrat and you're looking for a reason to be energized in this campaign, joe biden gave you those moments. if you're a republican like me and you're supporting mitt romney, you had your moments where you go, joe biden gets it completely wrong and you wonder how a vice president can get something competely wrong on the most pressing question in foreign policy regarding benghazi. joe biden says -- and, again, i'm not doing a briefing that's joe biden. i'm just saying, both sides gave the other side something. joe biden, joe klein, wouldn't even say, hey, yeah, maybe we need to raise social security a year, something everybody knows. so that's why we say, this was a split decision. >> it was stunning. because the president had said

that he would be willing to make some modifications in both medicare and social security to move them forward down the road. i was really kind of stunned by how old fashion biden's position on entitlements were. but if ed gillespie is still here -- >> yeah. >> i wonder, ed, how you guys go forward on big issues like the stimulus when, first of all, romney said that he favored stimulus, when the economy was crashing at the beginning of 2009, ryan asked for stimulus and, second of all, the auto bailout which the president didn't bring up at all in the debate last week but is the make juror -- is a major fact of life in ohio. how do you guys position yourself in the next couple of debates on those two issues where i think biden did get the better of ryan? >> well, governor romney opposed the stimulus bill and it's $813

billion that was supposed to bring our unemployment rate down to, i think around 5%. >> but he said at the time that he was in favor of stimulus to raise the economy. that's what we're talking about here. >> he opposed the stimulus. i don't know what you're talking about. >> and what he supports is trying to reform the -- is it my turn? >> we have a delay here. i'm sorry. >> governor romney opposed the stimulus bill from the get-go. what he favors is economic growth by reforming our tax code, bringing down marginal tax rates, broadening the base and that would result in economic growth. in fact, his tax plan is estimated to create seven million jobs for the american people. i thought it was remarkable last night that joe biden did not lay out a plan at all in terms of going forward in the next four years, what a second obama term would look like.

i don't blame him. because it would look like the first obama term. chronically high unemployment, increased national debt, falling household incomes like we've seen for the past four years. 4,300 decline in the average household income and paul ryan laid out a plan, the ryan/romney plan. not just a contrast in style but in substance. >> so what's the next debate look like, ed, as you guys prepare for the second presidential debate? >> well, it's a town hall format, as you know. it allows for an opportunity to hear from real people and their concerns. they have a lot of legitimate concerns and we're looking forward to continuing this momentum that we got out of the first debate and that paul ryan and his big win over sitting vice president. i can't recall a time when the challenger for the vice president to the vice president bested the vice president in the

debate and when you look at a poll, most people saw in paul ryan someone who had a command of the facts, a clear and positive agenda for the future and someone who is very serious about the issues, the serious issues that we face as a country. we're going to continue to highlight those big choice differences before the american people. >> ed gillespie, thank you very much for being on the show. we'll talk to you soon. >> thank you. >> thank you, ed. >> mark mckinnon, thank you as well. >> let me ask mark real quick, what do you think we're going to see next week? >> the bar is really low for the president. he just has to be energized and i think maybe brokaw or david gregory was talking about, the president needs to paint a larger picture about where the country is headed and his vision for the country. boy, they have not done that at all. the only program that obama has mentioned is 100,000 new math

and science teachers, which is almost like a cliche. >> i really think that is the biggest surprise, that as chicago was getting ready for this re-election campaign, there was no -- there just is no vision for the next four years. >> pedalling from an empty pack. >> yes. >> david brooks said about the debate last night, most of the discussion was on the romney plans because the other side just doesn't have any. >> fascinating. >> there is a folk music reference. >> there is. we shall return in just a minute. ♪ [ male announcer ] how do you make 70,000 trades a second... ♪ reach one customer at a time? ♪ or help doctors turn billions of bytes of shared information... ♪ into a fifth anniversary of remission? ♪ whatever your business challenge, dell has the technology and services to help you solve it.

let's go to cnbc's brian sullivan. he's got business before the bell. what are we talking about? >> not one big glaring story today like the debate. but jpmorgan chase's numbers came in reasonably solid. no sympathy for the banks out there but i will say this. the one good news is that the mortgage lending is definitely opening up. fourth quarter profit rose 34% year over year but lending was, indeed, higher. we've started to see that with a number of different banks. it is still difficult to get a loan. your credit store has to be above 720 to be almost automatic. i'm not saying that it's easy but mortgage lending does appear to be opening up quite a bit.

cbs sports radio taking down espn in 47 markets, media is going to swap out espn for cbs radio. >> some other news, greek unemployment is now at 25% and also the nobel prize awarded to the european union the same week that teargas is filling the streets. >> there was some confusion about that, joe, because the report was that it was the nobel peace prize but peace was actually spelled p-i-e-c-e because that's where the eu is right now. >> yeah, it's an interesting award to give except proving just how much the noble community dislikes america. they said that the european union has done a great job considering how bad we are and the fact that this crisis began

here in the united states. >> they blame us. >> it's our fault that they have had an out of control welfare state in the southern part of europe. >> i guess america get -- >> joe klein, be it's our fault that they have falling birth rates and demographics is upside down. >> it was so nobel. and also this chinese guy who can't write the truth about his country, it pretty clear where they are. >> thank you so much. coming up, willie's week in review straight ahead.

i've got the perfect guy here to make this tease. joe klein, you're not going to believe this on monday. one of my heroes.

at the top of the list along with paul mccartney, pete townshend. >> he is said to be a very smart guy. >> bright guy. he is an artist with an capital a. >> up next, willie's review.

we have to remind you once again as we head to the weekend review, this woman was just fine. >> they want to you do everything on but, you know -- >> are you okay? >> at number three, always be closing. >> qvc guest host fainted on the air this week while selling a kid-friend leanne droid tablet. yours for three easy payments of just $49.98. her co-host quickly rushed aside the minor distraction and kept right on moving merchandise. >> are you okay? what it does is give us an opportunity for us to be able to offer a piece of electronic equipment. >> slain recovered almost

immediately, later blaming low blood sugar and not her tv partner. >> i think people were envisioning him stepping over my limp body. >> and number two, a bad habit. video was released this week of a woman who either is a sweet old nun or just plays one on surveillance tv, swiping a cold beer from a convenience store. she executed the blessing, $5 discount not once but twice. and the number one story of the week -- >> we had a debate earlier this week and i enjoyed myself. >> the long shadow of last week's presidential debate lingered this week. the shadow, in fact, was about

eight feet long and full of feathers. >> one man has the guts to speak his name. >> big bird. >> big bird. >> it's me, big bird. >> the obama campaign talked about the vow of republicans to evict sesame street. >> finally somebody is cracking down on big bird. >> meanwhile, the big name surrogates were on the campaign trail. >> here's old moderate mitt. where you been, boy? i've missed you these last few years. >> and the veep boys after intense warmup were scrapping in kentucky. >> it's never been done before. >> it's been down a couple of

times. >> now you're jack kennedy? >> mr. vice president -- >> i know you're under a lot of duress but i think people would be better served if we don't keep interrupting each other. >> well, don't take four minutes, then. >> that's a bunch of mall larke >> two candidates wish they could close the sale as wish as this guy does. >> are you okay? >> we're going to get her working again in just a moment. we're going to make it available on three easy payments. up next, what, if anything, have we learned today?

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snoof it's time to talk about what we learned today. >> i learned that two big baseball games are at home today. down in d.c. the nats are going. >> who do you like? >> i've got to like the yankees. i like the nats at home. also we learned, this is what politics looks like in the 30th district. in california, two democrats, by the way, incumbent democrats redistricted going against each other, bear